Interviewing 325
April 11, 1989
Teresa Carlini
Grade: A
Teacher comments: Held a special meeting with me to tell me this paper ought to be a book.
Introduction
I chose “Rising Above” as my topic because I think that it is the ultimate human growth experience. I feel myself, as Maslow described, “self-actualizing”. It’s how we strive to reach our own unique potential. It is going beyond where you were taught to think that you could go in life.
I had hoped to capture the spirit of this growth; understand it and perhaps obtain the ability to share it. I have fantasies that someday I can infect others with these feelings; I had hoped to gain insight into how we can foster and inspire this growth where it might not otherwise be fertilized.
I feel that I have “risen above” the oppressive attitudes that I grew up with; my dad was like “Archie Bunker”, so need I explain the typical attitudes I was nurtured in? I feel free now to go after my dreams. I want to share my good feelings. I went from thinking that I was dumb to know that I am very intelligent; I used to think that I was unworthy and now think that we all deserve the best. I have come to see the whole world differently. How did this happen? Has it happened to others? Do they know how it happened to them? How do average people evolve and become one of the “Greats” like Martin Luther King?
The value of my topic is immeasurable to us humans. Imagine the effect of rising above oppressive attitudes could have on just one aspect of our life. For instance, the Klu Klux Klan, imagine if they could be taught to rise above their racial intolerance? Imagine what would happen if we could inspire black females to take charge of the inner city ghettoes; imagine if they came to believe that they had the power to do it, and did it! The value is that it holds hope for bettering our lives through studying positive change.
Studying human experience is precious; one small bit of knowledge about our humanness can profoundly affect us and lead us to learn even more. For instance, psychologists know that human infants would die without being touched; if they die without being touched, can we then stimulate health with the right kinds and amounts of touch? Couldn’t we use this knowledge about ourselves in these first few days of life to enrich the rest of our lives? Doesn’t this correlate with the fact that when one elderly spouse dies the other one frequently follows suit; perhaps the loss of meaningful touch can lead the elderly to lose hope and die? Can we through studying ourselves unlock untapped parts of ourselves? Sharing our human experience is one of the most valuable gifts that we can give to one another; we can learn how to make all of our lives better.
Methods & Responses
I opened my interview with female #1 by asking her what made her choose my topic. I wanted to learn what it meant to her. I then explained why I chose the topic and what it meant to me. She did feel that she had ” risen above” in their life and could identify with my interest in the subject. She was easy to interview; I sensed that she trusted me from the start and was glad to have someone to discuss the subject with.
She is single, 30 years old, and lives in an apartment with a roommate. She felt she had “risen above” having a severe physical deformity. Without my asking anything further she talked for a long time; she described all her ups and downs struggling to rise above it. She said she thought that her parents were the ones who could not handle her deformity. She described how she would get over one major hurdle only to find herself faced with another.
I asked, “What got you to this point? (Meaning the positive point she was at now). You did it several times and you seem to have gotten stronger each time”.
She described her faith in God, in herself, and in the goodness in the world; she read the WHOLE bible. She read about loving yourself and developed faith in mankind. She said it was a slow process that came as revelations. She found that it was OK to let go of bad thoughts like those of being hurt again.
I said, “It sounds like it is helping you to turn negative experiences into positive ones that you will share in the future”. She said, “Well, yes, it goes from anger that I have to live with this, to, I have to learn to accept this, so I’m going to accept this”. She felt babied as a child; she felt that “they” her parents, thought that she couldn’t accomplish it, so she developed an attitude of “I’ll show them”! She felt that she always had the inherent power to rise above it. She said you must rise above what people say that you are going to do.
I said, “Just be you and you’re OK”?
She said, “Yes”. This made us both smile and get teary-eyed with joy.
She said it helped her to look at herself the way she looked at others; her friend lost her little finger and is very self-conscious about it; she said who the hell cares whether or not your friend has a missing finger; so she came to look in the mirror at herself and say, “Who cares if her mouth isn’t straight”? She knew that a friend wouldn’t care; she came to have faith that if people got to know her, they could look beyond her appearance to the good stuff inside.
There was an “afterglow” after the interview in which she had a revelation that her mom really did help her to rise above; at some point, I had asked her if she thought her parents somehow inspired her to “rise above” and she had said “No”. But now she suddenly feels different about it and feels that she has something new to think about.
Female #2 is 37 years old, divorced, with 2 kids. She shared my wonder about Martin Luther King. The subject caught her attention because of its idealistic value; she also daydreamed about becoming a person who does great things. I said that I felt free to do the same; we had something in common; this made for a relaxed, easy interview.
She was taught that school for a girl was only marginally important, and that a man would come along and take care of her. After getting divorced she found that she liked being independent; she now feels that she is on an upward swing.
I said, “How did you get on that upward swing”?
She said that she had no idea. She says that she is not a realist, that she’s an idealist who looks through the world with rose-colored glasses. She now wants a lot more out of life, meaning personal satisfaction. She wants to do things that she really believes in.
She says she always felt inspired to do good but, in the past, lacked the self-confidence to act on it. She came to realize that influential people had the same insecurities that she did.
I asked, “Picture herself kicking up your heels because you did something super; can you imagine how that feels and what do you think you might have done”? She said that she feels at that point now. Her job has been giving her confidence lately. She was instrumental in starting up communication between the people in her business; they had had poor communication for 40 years. She feels that she has been instrumental in improving working conditions and major attitude changes. It makes her feel really good. It makes her feel like jumping up and down and screaming; this good feeling keeps her going.
I said, “Where did this good feeling come from”? She said that she thinks that it has always been in her. I said,” Did you know it was there before? She said, “Yes, but I didn’t know how to let it out. She feels that she has handled her kids well as a single mom. I said, “So you feel effective”? She said, “Yes, and now in school I want to learn how to use other good stuff that I know I have in me.”
I asked her how she thought that we could share this good feeling with others. She said she’s not sure that you can actually teach or share inspiration but thinks that you can really motivate. I asked her if her husband was supportive of her growth. She said, not at all; this was the hardest time of her life because she always had supportive people around her. Her husband was an alcoholic. She says this bad experience gave her a lot of strength.
I asked if she thought that her parents inspired her, and she said no; they just expected her to do “OK”. She said that teachers helped when they put high standards on what they expected from you; it made you reach further and see that you could get there.
I asked her what happened to her after she got divorced as far as her own personal growth. She said she grew to feel content with her family life and in getting older. She came to feel that age didn’t matter; the growth forced her to just improve herself. She now feels OK in concentrating on what she wants. She said she felt like she was “just” a mother or a maid while married, so how could you think about fulfilling your dreams?
In my other two interviews, I felt that I was assisting the two males in attempting to “rise above”. Both were slower than the women to open up; I found them harder to interview.
Male #1 was only 21 years old, single, and living at home with his parents. I started the interview by asking about his interest in my topic and he said that he is a musician who has been playing in a band since he was 9 years old and felt that through writing music, he was able to express his most sincere voice. (I sensed that he thought I was too old to possibly understand his feelings; he did not turn his body toward me and frequently looked away until near the end of the interview). I asked, “Is that how you let your insides out”? (Meaning through music). He said, “Yeah”. I said, “You can really communicate through music”?
He said, “Yeah, exactly, but coming from this area it’s impossible to go anywhere”. I said, “Do you mean that no band has ever made it out of Indiana? (He’s shaking his head. Yes) So you’ll be the first”! He said, “That would be great, that’s what I’m hoping for”.
He went on to describe how he and the other band members were in college and didn’t have time now to concentrate totally on their dreams with the band. I said, “So what you are doing now is PLANNING to rise above”? He was shaking his head and, I said, “So tell me about your plans to rise above, it will give me a whole new aspect”.
He said, “We’re constantly recording to get a tape put together to send to the West Coast to a record company. If you want decent distribution nationwide for a reasonable price you send it to an independent label out west”. His short-term goal is to get a record out independently. He’s also going to college to study broadcasting; other band members are in college too.
I said, “It sounds like there’s more to your group than just wanting to make a record; you’re in the process of educating yourselves in related fields; you guys are smart, you planning more than one way to make it in life”. He said, “Exactly, what I want out of life is not really money; I’m always writing stuff, you know, the creative process. The greatest thing for that is not necessarily the finished product, but some kind of manifestation of what you wrote.” I said, “Your thoughts become things”?
He said, “Exactly, that’s what I want out of life! For someone else to say, hey, I can identify with that. I don’t know what kind of deficiency causes that – ” I said, “Deficiency”?
He said, “That’s what I think”. I said, “I see the opposite, I see someone who wants to be creative and express themselves in an art form as having something on someone who just wants to go to work every day for the rest of his life”. He said, “Maybe, it’s not fair to say it, but maybe I have more to say”. I said, “NO SHIT”! I think it takes intelligence to do things that way”. He said, “Yeah, but it seems like someone who busted their ass everyday for 30 or 40 years would have more to say”. I said, “I don’t think so, I see your dreams as very realistic and possible.”
He said, “Yeah, I know it’s possible, but sometimes I question whether I really want to pursue it, like just basically writing a song, it’s really a stupid way to look at it I guess, but if you were really an efficient human being you would just say what you wanted to say and be done with it – “. I said, “Why are you putting yourself down? Is this what you’re going to rise above, your own put-downs?” He said, “It gives me something to write about.” I said, “You’re giving yourself blocks to overcome”. He said, “No, No”. I said, “I don’t really see that you have much in your way to pursue your dream, you have all this creativity in you, your smart, you’re going to college, your very young yet, you have all this wonderful potential and your saying “I don’t know”, I think you must be crazy”! He laughs very loud and then says “no”. I said, “You’re putting your own blocks in, why?” He said, “I don’t know, that’s a good point. I never thought about it like that.”
I said, “Are you afraid of success?” He said, ” Possibly”.
I said, “Women sometimes have that, fear of success.
Maybe you have some form of – “Holy shit, what if our band makes it. Or what if I have a famous song, what if I become another Burt Bacharach or a Lerner and Lowe? Almost as if you see yourself as a regular guy and they aren’t supposed to do great things”.
He said, “I never thought about it like that, it’s true I’m throwing bricks in my own way. Pauses to think. It’s something that I have to do, I have to have a go at it. It’s almost as a defense mechanism if I fail – “. I said, “Oh, I see, but you already have a plan for that, you’re studying broadcasting, you’ve already got yourself a backup”.
I said, “What are your parents telling you?” He said, “That it can only be a hobby”. I said, “Oh, that’s where your blocks are coming from; from parental messages”. He said, “They told me that from day one”. I said, “So they are the ones you have to rise above, not you? You know that you can do it. Maybe they have a lot of traditional attitudes that you have to rise above”.
He said, “Uh, Uh. They would never believe that a kid could -“. I said, “But you do”!
He said, “Yeah, what’s really nice is the people around us; we have a pretty large gathering of friends that come to see us play. That means that we must mean something to somebody”. I said, “So how are you going to rise above it”? He said, “When things start to balance out and we start making decent money we can work on better and better projects. Try to develop a following in the city; in the long term make a record and end up in the newspapers like the Reader. I said, “So you’re getting a lot of exposure working in Chicago bars”? He said, “Yeah, we are better than 3 out of 4 groups in the area”.
I said, “Tell me what it feels like when you are up in front of the audience”. He said, “There’s no feeling like it in the whole world, it’s really exciting”. I said, “It brings out the ham in you”? He said, “Pretty much, with his head down, embarrassed. There’s something about being out in front of a crowd of people, your adrenaline is pumping, and it’s great. Just writing about stuff that happens, not sloppy love songs, songs about nothing and about stuff that happens. Being able to write a song like that and have people say, Yeah, I can identify with that”. (He begins to turn his body toward me and have more eye contact; he’s more spontaneous).
I said, “Have you thought about writing a song about what it is that you want to do”? He said, “I was thinking about that just now”! I said, “Yeah, about the parental messages that you need to rise above, I bet a lot of people could identify with that”.
He said, “That’s a great idea, I’ll give you credit”. I said, ” No, just give me tickets to come and see you do your thing”.
I said, “Can you think of something in the past that you rose above?” He said, “Yeah, in high school the biggest thing that I wanted to do was play in front of a lot of people; starting our first year of college we got our first gig in Portage, and we played in front of a few hundred people”. I said, “So tell me how it felt”. He said, “I felt like I was on top of the world, it was great”. I said, “How did your body feel”? He said, “I was so nervous, and to this day when I get up to play I’m very nervous. It was like stage fright. It took us about 5 minutes to get ready to play. I had been playing for so long and now was my big manifestation of it. The first song I was so tense I could hardly play”.
I said, “So when you went home that night and you were alone, how did you feel?” He said, “I don’t think I went to bed that night”. I said, “You stayed up all night, you wanted to keep feeling that feeling”? He said, “Yeah, I was so fired up I didn’t want to lose it. It was awesome. What’s neat is that this feeling hits you every time you play. It’s a really big reward for playing”. I said, “That’s what keeps you going”? He said, “Yeah, recently we practiced after not doing it for a while and when we were playing great it felt so good like we were really communicating without saying anything”. I said, “It’s a deeper communication”. He said, “Yeah”.
I said, “So it sounds like your parents have placed some blocks in your way; you recognize them, yet somehow I’m getting a message that you are going to overcome them when you’re ready”.
He said, “Yeah!” I said, “Don’t you think there were people who told Martin Luther King that he couldn’t do what he wanted to do? You are in the infant stages of rising above; I feel like I want to fertilize you. I think I would be proud to have a caring person like you writing music that my grandchildren will listen to. (At some point he said that he was concerned about some of the junk music that gave kids bad ideas about drugs and stuff).
He said, “Thanks”.
Male #2 was 35 years old, divorced, had several physical deformities, and lived at home with his parents. This was the roughest interview. He refused to be taped, and insisted on sitting in the canteen room where there were lots of people around because he had to smoke. I felt a wall of hurt and machismo between us. After explaining my reasons for the subject, I asked him why he picked my topic. He said that he had always been introverted; he went on to describe the positive feelings that he had after giving a speech last semester in a public speaking class. (I think he was saying what he thought I wanted to hear).
I repeatedly asked him how he felt when he got home after the speech; each time he smiled broadly and described elated feelings. Then he went on slowly to what he was really feeling.
He told me about having polio as a child; about being an adolescent unable to play sports like the rest of the guys because his legs were crippled. He said all he wanted was to be like the other guys, you know, have girlfriends, have a few beers. He seemed positive about rising above these problems. I rewarded these Responses by telling him that this was the kind of information that I was looking for and tried to encourage his sharing with me how he thought that he did it.
However suddenly things changed, and he started telling me about his divorce; he said his wife used to disappear for days at a time; he followed her once and found her with another man.
Soon after getting divorced, he lost his job at one of the mills where he had worked as a machinist for 14 years; he didn’t know how to do anything else. He did find another job, but then had to have brain surgery and could not work as a machinist anymore. He hates the fact that he has to take medication to prevent seizures for the rest of his life.
He’s now in a vocational rehabilitation program that’s paying for him to go to college; he’s having trouble handling full-time classes, no money, living with his parents, and having no one to talk to who understands him; he’s afraid that he’s not going to make it in school and then what will happen to him?
I sensed desperation in him; I sensed that life had just thrown too much shit in his way for him to handle.
He said that he used to hold his feelings all the time; I said that I thought he still had a lot of feelings to work through further. I asked if he had ever considered professional help; when this did not appear to make him angry at all I said that I thought it might be of help to him. I said that he rose above before, but that perhaps there are times when we could all use help in our rising above. He was not insulted but did not pursue the subject.
At one point near the end of the interview, he finally leaned forward toward me while speaking and I could then feel that he trusted me. I sensed that he wanted to let his guard down more, but there were other students around.
He discussed the fact that he likes guns and that the day he went after his wife his friend told him to leave his gun at home and that he’s glad he did because he might have used it. He talked a lot about guns; I was honest and told him as a nurse I hated guns for what I saw them do to people. I worry about this man with guns; I think that he desperately needs help to rise above again.
Theme
“Rising above” as an experience is the development of an attitude that allows you to do what others have either said that you couldn’t do or that seemed to be impossible due to physical limitations. It’s an internal process that leads to the development of self-confidence in yourself despite negative attitudes from the past. “Rising above” is a slow, continuous process; one occasionally takes large steps backward before being able to take small steps forward. Some adversity is essential! If there is nothing in the way of your rising above, you may never see the need to do so. (Attitudinal barriers ARE actual barriers).
All of those that I interviewed had things that they perceived as being somehow in their way of succeeding. Perhaps we were not programmed to succeed without challenges; perhaps we should look differently upon so-called physical deformities, oppressive attitudes, and negative parental messages; perhaps it’s our attitude toward them that should be changed, why not see them as a hurdle before growth? Perhaps we should study to learn what is the crucial limit in what will serve as a challenge and what will depress our limits to “rise above”.
Limitations
My study has numerous limitations; too few people for one. For the study to be really meaningful I would have had to interview Mrs. Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and other Nobel Peace Prize winners in many different fields. I would have had to interview the homeless and those seen as average citizens; what is the difference between these people?
Not enough time, especially with the men who took much longer to “open up” to me. Months, not hours, would be needed to really obtain qualitative data.
A scale or some sort of measuring device would need to be developed to weigh the limits of blocks that would lead to growth.
Repeated interviews would have been good; they could have thought about the first discussion and added comments from it in the second interview. It really does help to think about this type of subject for a while; we don’t usually go around thinking about this type of subject.
Perhaps experiments could be invented that would somehow measure the limits and types of physical or psychological blocks that would stimulate “rising above”.
We could develop classes to then use what was learned in the experiments to stimulate rising above attitudes in students. Longitudinal studies could then follow the students and evaluate their “rising above”; did they rise above beyond that of students in their graduating class who did not have the class?
Summary
“Rising above” is a unique and individual experience and at the same time, it’s really quite the same. I think the limit of what we are able to “rise above” on our own, with just our coping mechanisms has a limit, as shown with male #2, who was pushed beyond what he thought that he could “rise above” even though he had the experience of doing it before.
With the two females, I felt that they were both glad to have an audience to express their positive feelings with; one that would not look down upon them for what they may have learned was “bragging”. I think that both of the females will go on to do things of value in our society. Their level of growth and altruistic feelings will bring them to serve us all.
While interviewing male #1, I could actually “feel” him being fertilized by my positive responses to his goals. I sensed that with someone behind him whispering “Yes you can” he could.
I think that male #2, needs professional help; he has poor self-esteem and is not coping well with his life situation; this does not make for a happy mix with an attitude that is positive about guns.
Conclusion
In conclusion, I feel more surer than ever that someday I would like to organize a class of some sort that would give the average person of any age some insight into “rising above” what he thinks now. So many of us don’t think about or question things that we were taught. Sometimes we are taught not to question or not to tamper with the status quo, even our own status quo, which I would call stagnation.
When my dad was dying of cancer his doctor told him, in front of me, that he would have to go to the hospital and have tests done; in front of the doctor, I said that he had other options, like going home and taking medicine to make him comfortable. Older people were taught that they “HAD” to do what the doctor said, no one ever told them that it was OK to ask for other options. The doctor told my dad that he certainly could do what I said but had not offered the option. My dad was delighted to go home, get relief from pain, and die two days later with his family around him. Even my old, ” Archie Bunker” like dad could accept a new attitude that surprised even me.
I would love to see creative minds find ways to encourage and nurture positive attitudinal growth in people of all ages.